The spokesperson which the Jesuits have designated to deal with issues relating to the Nicaraguan confiscation of the UCA and other Jesuit assets is a very experienced Jesuit, Fr. José María Tojeira, who was the Central American provincial in 1989 when six Jesuit priests and their housekeepers were killed by the Salvadoran military. This interview of Fr. Tojeira is one of the most extensive and complete recent interviews. Among several important points covered, he responds to the claims made by the Nicaraguan government about the UCA and deals with what the order plans to do in response, the history of the Jesuits´relationship to the Sandinistas, the relationship between the Nicaraguan government and the Vatican, and whether these recent incidents reveal the strength or weakness of government control over society.
An interview of Fr. José María Tojeira by BBC Mundo published in La Prensa, Aug 29, 2023
There are people in Nicaragua who, even though they are in government posts, realize that this is not the way. There is unrest.
José María Tojeira knows very well what it is to work as a Jesuit in extreme conditions in Central America.
This priest in the early morning of 1989 heard the shots of the soldiers who massacred six Jesuit priests and two women in the Central American University (UCA) of El Salvador, some 40 meters from where he was.
Tojeira was the provincial superior of the Jesuits in Central America and since then demanded justice for that slaughter, for which a retired Coronel was sentenced to 133 years in prison in Spain, and an open case concerning the intellectual authors continues.
Now the priest has another difficult mission: he was designated the official spokesperson for the Society of Jesus for the crisis which the order of Pope Francis faces in Nicaragua, where the government of Daniel Ortega cancelled their legal status and confiscated several assets, including the UCA in Managua.
Tojeira sees similarities between this way of acting and that of the Salvadoran government in 1989, even though their ideological positions and contexts are different.
“The violent approach” and “lying are impressive points of coincidence,” compared Tojeira in an interview with BBC Mundo.
What follows is a synthesis of the telephone conversation with this theologian and former President of the UCA of El Salvador who was born in Spain:
What does the decision of the government of Nicaragua to cancel the Jesuit order´s legal status in the country and confiscate its assets mean?
They have not completely cancelled the order. That is to say, they have cancelled one of the several legal statuses that our order has, which embodied two buildings: one where the Jesuits who worked in the UCA lived, and a home for scholarship students who had nowhere to live.
This legal status was also used to transfer money from the Provincial Curia to Nicaragua to meet the needs of elderly Jesuits in the infirmary. We have had to remove some of the sick from Nicaragua because we could not provide them with adequate attention there.
This is part of the systematic attacks on the Church and those sectors of the Church who have critically expressed themselves about the Sandinista government.
So, this does not mean the cessation of the operations of the Society of Jesus and they can continue operating with the other legal statuses, for example, the Jesuit schools in Nicaragua?
Exactly. We have two schools in Nicaragua: Centro América and Loyola. Each one has their own legal status. So, the Jesuits continue working there.
The same is happening with Fe y Alegría, a network of popular schools and high schools which are generally built in marginal neighborhoods and impoverished rural zones. It has some 20 schools and high schools which continue operating normally.
Up to what point are the Jesuits willing to remain in Nicaragua within this context?
Our decision is to remain in Nicaragua unless they expel us. Up to now there has been no order of expulsion.
We believe that on the popular level we have a strong demand for support, evangelization, education and help in what we can do. And we are going to continue.
The argument of the Ministry of the Interior of Ortega for cancelling the legal status this past August 23rd was that the Society of Jesus in Nicaragua did not report on their financial statements in the last three years. What is your response?
For starters, this makes me almost laugh, because it was something we were already expecting.
Every year we promptly go to present the information which must be presented. But in the case of this legal status, they systematically refused to receive the information.
And when we asked for documentary proof of the fact that they did not want to receive it, or a reason why, they would tell us, “We are not receiving it, period.” Then they come out saying that that information was not up to date. That is logical, if they do not receive it, it is impossible [to update].
There was a position taken in advance I believe to keep our institutions vulnerable and under question.
What steps are the Jesuits thinking of following in the face of these confiscations of the Nicaraguan government?
We are studying the possibility of some demand in international institutions, be they the UN on the part of Human Rights or the OAS in Latin America.
We believe that it has been an arbitrary and irregular measure, so we are studying with lawyers the possibility of making an international claim asking for the return of what was confiscated.
Do you think such a claim can prosper?
In general, very authoritarian states do not pay attention to the UN or the OAS. But we do believe it is important that there be on the record a well-founded and independent opinion on the confiscation procedure.
It cannot be that a violation of rights or an offense against an institution happens with a false accusation and it just be left at that.
International institutions at least can help to put the truth on record. And later, because this dictatorship is not going to be eternal, claims can be made about something that has a legal basis.
What does the confiscation of the Central American University in Nicaragua mean for the Jesuits?
We have been working in this university for more than 60 years. It signifies a lot of effort of Jesuits, laypeople and people interested in improving education.
The greatest contemporaneous poets of Nicaragua started connected to the UCA, within the great poetic tradition which exists in the country starting with Rubén Darío.
It is a university which has produced knowledge and created culture, very open to social responsibility.
To remove it suddenly in this way seems to us profoundly unjust. It pains us above all because we believe that they are doing damage to Nicaragua.
In recent years, above all starting with the 2018 crisis, the UCA had occupied a special place in Nicaragua in the midst of the protests, in defense of freedom of expression. The government of Ortega accused it of “terrorism”. Were you expecting a measure of this type?
We were always thinking about the possibility because it was not the first university that they confiscated. They had confiscated an agrarian university that the Church had in Estelí.
The persecution of the Church was evident. That had not touched us yet because the UCA had strong symbolic importance within the country, because of its prestige.
We thought that this protected it a bit, but this could happen at any time.
The Jesuits had historic connections with the Sandinistas. When did that relationship begin to deteriorate and why?
We began with some relatively important connections, because we collaborated a lot in the agrarian reform which the Sandinista regime did in Nicaragua and the literacy campaign.
But the problems began in the second stage of the Sandinista Front, when it came to power again and above all when he decided to be re-elected, because the immediate re-election from one period to the next was prohibited by the Constitution.
When they changed that constitutional point there was a criticism from the University and there began a bad relationship which continued in the second re-election and above all starting in 2018, because of the violent repression of popular demonstrations.
You were the President of the UCA in El Salvador, where in 1989 you were there for the murder of eight people, including six Jesuit priests. Is there any point of comparison between what happened at that time in El Salvador and what is happening now in Nicaragua?
The point of comparison is the authoritarianism and the style incapable of establishing dialogue and seeking peaceful solutions.
In the Salvadoran case there was a civil war. But the reaction is always to eliminate the dissident voice, of the one who wants peace, dialogue and a negotiated solution to the conflict.
In Nicaragua when the large demonstrations were happening in 2018 the UCA was on the side of dialogue and ensuring a peaceful ending for the regime, because there was already a weariness on the part of the population: that there would be free elections, something which later did not happen.
These positions of dialogue and the search for peaceful solutions to conflict deeply irritate military sectors, particularly in El Salvador, who were the ones who directed the war, and governmental sectors in Nicaragua, who are those who are directing the repression as well.
That is the point of contact, even though the historical contexts have been different.
Do you see a similarity in the way of acting that the Government of El Salvador had at that time with how the government of Ortega is acting?
Well, yes, the violent approach. Different type of violence, but the violent approach and also the approach of distorting the truth.
One of the things that we got with a lot of effort was the fact that it be recognized that the Salvadoran army had killed the Jesuits. The version of the Government was that the FMLN (Farabundo Marti Liberation Front) had killed them.
I believe that the Sandinistas also are lying: they say that we did not have the data of our legal status up to date and accuse the UCA of terrorism, when instead what it did in one moment was to protect the people who the military and police forces were shooting at, in addition to insisting on the issue of dialogue and peaceful solution to the conflict.
Lying is an impressive point of coincidence in these two events.
The Society of Jesus is the order to which Pope Francis belongs. Do you think that the government of Ortega also is taking these actions aimed at him?
The relationship between the government of Ortega and the pope is not good. We can see that in the declarations from both parties: Mr Ortega calling the Pope a dictator and the Pope saying that there is something in the mind of Ortega which appears a bit like the Nazis.
On the other hand, the persecution of the Church is obvious. Ortega expelled the Apostolic Nuncio and threatened to break diplomatic relations with the Vatican.
This man does not balk in responding to any criticism made of him, no matter how well intentioned it may be.
The Pope, with all reason, is concerned about the completely arbitrary imprisonment of Bishop Rolando Álvarez. It is an obvious proof of the persecution of the Church, it is normal for the Pope to complain.
The responses of Ortega have been outrageous and led the Pope to some pretty logical conclusions: that something is not working well in the head of that Central American dictator.
So, do you believe that these measures which the government of Ortega has taken in recent weeks against the Society of Jesus are also a response to the Pope?
That is difficult for me to believe as long as there is no evidence in its manifestation. What I do believe is that there is a persecution of the Church in Nicaragua which includes the Society of Jesus.
These people, the Government of Nicaragua, I believe that what they have is a generalized hate of the Church as a social force and thought which they cannot control.
And they want to control it however possible, be it the bishops, the Society of Jesus or any priest who might think differently.
I think it is a generalized hate of the Church, and not so much a direct thing against the Pope. I think that they hate the Pope as well because he has defended the Church.
Why do you think that diplomatic relations between Nicaragua and the Vatican remain despite all this?
I think that breaking relations always implies some loss of prestige for the country which breaks them and that is why it has not wanted to break them, but they have completely suspended them.
In fact, in order to intercede for Mons. Álvarez the Pope has to resort to the support of (the Brazilian President) Lula or some government which has some prestige or moral power for the Nicaraguan dictator.
Do you feel that you have received the needed support from Pope Francis and the Vatican in general in the face of the measures of the Government of Nicaragua?
I think so. Of course, I remember a bit what they said that Stalin replied when they told him not to get into it with the Church, and he responded, “Where are the planes and tanks of the Vatican?”
The Vatican has moral power, but it does not have anything more than moral power. And in that sense, I believe that the Pope is doing everything possible. Really our power is a weak power, because morality is not the strongest force in the world in which we live.
Do you see some sign that the government of Ortega is weakening in some way? Or on the contrary, are these signs that he is taking more control over Nicaragua?
Control is getting stronger and stronger. What is happening is that, in social relations, the stronger the control is, the easier it is for there to be some eruption.
So, we do believe that so much control can lead to internal eruptions, not so much popular ones but within the system itself.
There are people in Nicaragua who, even though they may be in governmental positions, realize that this is not the way. There is unrest.
All the leaders of the army and the police have to ask permission to be able to leave the country. It is a control which they are not accustomed to, which has been increasing significantly.
On the other hand, Ortega is not the same as his wife: even though they operate for now in a very unified way, they do not have the same support from the military.
Ortega is 78 years old, another factor which I would say is going to force a reorganization of internal power relatively soon. How they are going to do it is another issue.
So, I think that there are cracks which are going to make such a strong concentration of power erupt in some way.
I hope it is a peaceful eruption and a peaceful outcome can be achieved to the current situation.